I really struggle with this- yes I think it is good but i feel we proclaim church planters too much- what about the Gavin Hendersons etc who are moving to churches who have issues- And really putting in the hard yards over long periods of time struggling away alone and un-supported by the people of the area (Not saying Gav isn't). I just think they are more deserving of reckoning than people who come in with a massive prayer and financial support- start a church and then move on after a few years turning it over to some one else. These people are just as missional as anyone else but with a whole lot less support
You have made it extremely hard to say anything negative using such a specific example. So here I go.
To be honest I don't agree with you one bit. I think what you said is rubbish and part of a traditionalist church cultural problem that hinders church planting and reaching the lost.
That is NOT to say that Gavin should not get credit for what he is doing!!! But that we proclaim church planters. WHAT THE??? I would love to know where this is??
Church Planters are probably the most criticised pastors out there and have the hardest time to pull a team together and have the resources to start the church. The Church plant that is in the wings is not going to be easy Tim it is going to be hard work, arguments and heated debate. It is not going to be all rosy and lovely and if it is there is either a problem or we are perfect like Jesus.
Where has the consistent discussion been about church planting? I mean look at Townsville and Dave's efforts to do this with other unnamed churches. They failed big time.
To be blunt and honest I am tired of money being poured in to churches where people are treating church as a social club and don't know Jesus (and won't share their plates and forks with the rest of the church). Do they need to know Jesus - absolutely! But we keep trying so hard with them (decades) that we leave the rest of the city with no gospel. They are not generous with their money and suck money from other areas that need it.
You know what Albert Einstein said Insanity was... doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Time has passed nothing has changed it is time to stop wasting time and money.
PS - I am not sure you would have expected this Tim but I am getting frustrated with stupidity.
I agree that we need to encourage church planters. I also agree that we need to encourage people who have landed in difficult churches and are working hard at making progress.
I don't think, Chris, that Tim was saying *you* don't recognise the efforts put in by people like Gavin- it sounded like he was saying that's just an attitude you find in many churches.
I totally agree with what you said about "social club" churches, but that's not what's going on in Ayr- it's a church of dedicated Christians who have had very little support recently. Pouring money into "social club" churches at the expense of ministry to the rest of the city is NOT the same as supporting an authentic (but struggling) church like Ayr Pressie. Is our support of them "wasting money"? Has "nothing" really changed?
I understand what you're saying regarding the hypothetical (yet real in many places) situation regarding the social club churches which are not generous and deprive the rest of a city of the gospel. But it's not the same as the example Tim gave and so I don't think it's a valid response against someone suggesting we keep paying attention to people who are putting in the hard yards in authentic Christian churches. They are two entirely different scenarios.
And in regards to the Australian Church Plant Network... what do they mean "bigger than any one denomination"? Are they starting their own denomination? Because that's a different kettle of fish than simply church planting. Or are they planting new churches for different denominations? Doesn't sound like it. Or are these churches not going to have a denomination? Which I think is a bit dangerous because churches which aren't answerable to some form of denominational heirarchy often have a habit of going off the rails. (And this includes churches that do 'belong' to a denomination but are 'disengaged'.)
Like I said it is hard when Tim put that example in front of us.
I did not think that Tim was talking specifically to me but I think that he is so off the mark that it I had to say it. Generally in Churches church planting is not even thought of which is bizarre and crazy.
In regards to "social club churches" the sad reality is not that there are churches like this but there are people in almost every church that are like this. We fool ourselves if we think that there not people like this at any and all of the churches in Townsville. I do not know the people of Ayr and Home Hill but because of where the Pressie church is I would be more than reasonable to assume that there would be people there that go for a social club - the most frightening thing is that some of them may be Christians that have fallen asleep.
Validity of my response? I am not sure how that works mainly because Tim came up to protect the cause he fans the flame for on a post about Church Planting. It makes sense to me.
From my discussions last night it is about reformed, evangelical, culturally relevant denominations (hmmm) networking to plant churches. It is about providing resources and a community to discuss church planting. It is not about planting outside your denomination (if you’re in one) but not that similar minded independent churches would be excluded.
Agreed that there is that danger but a just as concerning danger is a Denomination that is an institution or a business or a museum rather then a Church. That hinders church growth rather than assisting it.
Denominations need to adapt loose the paper work and be a church. They need to encourage young men and not frustrate them, they need to encourage innovation rather then stifle it, they need to take off the training wheels and deal with change.
Hi Chris, in regards to my comment But it's not the same as the example Tim gave and so I don't think it's a valid response against someone suggesting we keep paying attention to people who are putting in the hard yards in authentic Christian churches.
I only meant that the scenario you gave- about pouring money into social-club churches at the expense of taking the gospel to other areas of a city- isn't the same as what's happening in Ayr, so I didn't think it was a reason to disagree with the idea of continuting to recognise people in Gavin's position. That's all :)
And I cannot comment on Ayr/Home Hill having not meet the people and I think Gavin is a Godly man (having meet him). But I would refer to my previous comment
"In regards to "social club churches" the sad reality is not that there are churches like this but there are people in almost every church that are like this."
I think I may have scared Tim off though - I do love you brother Tim.
:) no just trying to work out how to reply in love :D how i think a church plant model should go church>>> church growing and developing leadership>>>>> church plant... at each of those > things is time.
Now the thing is most church's aren't growing so they aren't even in the position to consider planting. church>>>>>same church>>>>> same church dying out. now I know there are issues here about lack of mission and lack of out reach but we'll come to that.
In my opinion (I'm learning jon) what some times happens is (model A) church>>>>>>church decides to church plant without much growth or leadership>>>>>church plant and church both struggle in terms of leadership>>>> one or both die and people leave being disillusioned with the denomination. (Model B) church>>>>> people get in argument with church leadership>>>> plant church
Model C People decided I want a church that runs how I want it to run with out being subject to leadership >>>> plant church to fit their need and wants while saying it is to fulfill a necessary area/ministry. unfortunately ends up targeting a very small range of people whether age group or theological base.
Now none of these 3 models are healthy plants but they happen and unfortunately people get severely burned when they fail.
Now another model is that of the traveling church planter. Now often they do do a good job. however sometimes the people in home office send them to an area where churches can't support the new church or they steal people from that church and leave both churches severely weakened. However the traveling planter has moved onto the next conquest with another notch on his belt.
The reason I bring up these is because we have seen everyone of these models happen in the past. And people in our churches have been burned by them and are rightly hesitant to get involved again. and look at their situations... John Knox is hardly in a position to plant- they are rebuilding and expanding quickly. They have started a youth group for the first time in a number of years... I call that missional. Yes maybe another church should be involved but they are getting a new pastor- I'd be hesitant too. They have been focused on the inner city but due to variety of issues it hasn't worked out. They are also looking south (e.g. that is their domain and this is ours. I call that missional and i wish them luck in their out reach especially to the inner city
Now to our church for some figures Adults attending church at willows (total) Feb 03>>>>>>>> Feb05>>>>>>>Feb 09 122 adlts 174 adlts 318 adlts Now thats without the majority of our uni students back. my point is in 4 years our church has doubled in size and in 6 years has tripled. In 6 years I've been here we have gone from 0 young men in leadership to 22 young men in active leadership with a bunch more being groomed in the wings plus some moved on to other areas of ministry. I would call that encouraging young men not frustrating them. We are building on a team of leadership but we aren't quite there yet. For instance Very frequently people are on rosters and yet do not do their job- yes this might be a small thing like welcoming but those who can not be trusted to do little things.... Also practically things like music and technical stuff we are stretch on already. There were two of us down for sound for the 11am service. bruce williams does sound every week for the 8am service- who wants to come an hour before church to set up? But we are getting there- many churches would die to have tripled in 6 years- remember we are a church plant from not too long ago.
now in regard to change and i can only speak for the pressie church here: Now the pressie church is known for their in ability to change and that is because of mostly they are the remnant. You see the generation that wanted change, were vocal about change spoke up. They were passionate about change- we need to innovate. Denominations aren't important lets join with the Methodists they aren't that different to us. Wow Christians getting together, working together this is awesome. Lets not bother with paperwork and those big mission statements- Passion is the name of the game. These people left the church to start their own United church. Now imagine that is your daughter and son. Because of that little Compromise, 1 word (contains/is the word of God) thousand of people have turned their back on God disillusioned at the church or so liberal we can hardly call them christians. And so the Pressie church remained absolutely shattered-75% of all its building gone, the majority of their congregations gone and especially their innovators, creative thinkers. That is what takes a long time to recover from- many churches didn't ever recover. See our parent generation should be the ones who are leading from the front but there are oh so few of them in our churches. So of course the remnant are going to be resistant to change- why because look what happened last time- how do we change that- through love- there are so many scars that need to be healed- through time- showing that we can be trusted. You see they have had their kids calling them a self serving social church before- and how many of them are walking with the Lord now?
Church planting is a path fraught with difficulty - but also much easier than transforming an established congregation and working with difficult elders who are entrenched in their positions. Which is often the challenge when trying to turn a presbyterian church into an evangelical church.
I really struggle with this- yes I think it is good but i feel we proclaim church planters too much- what about the Gavin Hendersons etc who are moving to churches who have issues- And really putting in the hard yards over long periods of time struggling away alone and un-supported by the people of the area (Not saying Gav isn't). I just think they are more deserving of reckoning than people who come in with a massive prayer and financial support- start a church and then move on after a few years turning it over to some one else. These people are just as missional as anyone else but with a whole lot less support
ReplyDeleteTim
ReplyDeleteYou have made it extremely hard to say anything negative using such a specific example. So here I go.
To be honest I don't agree with you one bit. I think what you said is rubbish and part of a traditionalist church cultural problem that hinders church planting and reaching the lost.
That is NOT to say that Gavin should not get credit for what he is doing!!! But that we proclaim church planters. WHAT THE??? I would love to know where this is??
Church Planters are probably the most criticised pastors out there and have the hardest time to pull a team together and have the resources to start the church. The Church plant that is in the wings is not going to be easy Tim it is going to be hard work, arguments and heated debate. It is not going to be all rosy and lovely and if it is there is either a problem or we are perfect like Jesus.
Where has the consistent discussion been about church planting? I mean look at Townsville and Dave's efforts to do this with other unnamed churches. They failed big time.
To be blunt and honest I am tired of money being poured in to churches where people are treating church as a social club and don't know Jesus (and won't share their plates and forks with the rest of the church). Do they need to know Jesus - absolutely! But we keep trying so hard with them (decades) that we leave the rest of the city with no gospel. They are not generous with their money and suck money from other areas that need it.
You know what Albert Einstein said Insanity was... doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Time has passed nothing has changed it is time to stop wasting time and money.
PS - I am not sure you would have expected this Tim but I am getting frustrated with stupidity.
Hmmm.
ReplyDeleteI agree that we need to encourage church planters. I also agree that we need to encourage people who have landed in difficult churches and are working hard at making progress.
I don't think, Chris, that Tim was saying *you* don't recognise the efforts put in by people like Gavin- it sounded like he was saying that's just an attitude you find in many churches.
I totally agree with what you said about "social club" churches, but that's not what's going on in Ayr- it's a church of dedicated Christians who have had very little support recently. Pouring money into "social club" churches at the expense of ministry to the rest of the city is NOT the same as supporting an authentic (but struggling) church like Ayr Pressie. Is our support of them "wasting money"? Has "nothing" really changed?
I understand what you're saying regarding the hypothetical (yet real in many places) situation regarding the social club churches which are not generous and deprive the rest of a city of the gospel. But it's not the same as the example Tim gave and so I don't think it's a valid response against someone suggesting we keep paying attention to people who are putting in the hard yards in authentic Christian churches. They are two entirely different scenarios.
And in regards to the Australian Church Plant Network... what do they mean "bigger than any one denomination"? Are they starting their own denomination? Because that's a different kettle of fish than simply church planting. Or are they planting new churches for different denominations? Doesn't sound like it. Or are these churches not going to have a denomination? Which I think is a bit dangerous because churches which aren't answerable to some form of denominational heirarchy often have a habit of going off the rails. (And this includes churches that do 'belong' to a denomination but are 'disengaged'.)
ReplyDeleteLeah and Tim
ReplyDeleteLike I said it is hard when Tim put that example in front of us.
I did not think that Tim was talking specifically to me but I think that he is so off the mark that it I had to say it. Generally in Churches church planting is not even thought of which is bizarre and crazy.
In regards to "social club churches" the sad reality is not that there are churches like this but there are people in almost every church that are like this. We fool ourselves if we think that there not people like this at any and all of the churches in Townsville. I do not know the people of Ayr and Home Hill but because of where the Pressie church is I would be more than reasonable to assume that there would be people there that go for a social club - the most frightening thing is that some of them may be Christians that have fallen asleep.
Validity of my response? I am not sure how that works mainly because Tim came up to protect the cause he fans the flame for on a post about Church Planting. It makes sense to me.
From my discussions last night it is about reformed, evangelical, culturally relevant denominations (hmmm) networking to plant churches. It is about providing resources and a community to discuss church planting. It is not about planting outside your denomination (if you’re in one) but not that similar minded independent churches would be excluded.
ReplyDeleteAgreed that there is that danger but a just as concerning danger is a Denomination that is an institution or a business or a museum rather then a Church. That hinders church growth rather than assisting it.
Denominations need to adapt loose the paper work and be a church. They need to encourage young men and not frustrate them, they need to encourage innovation rather then stifle it, they need to take off the training wheels and deal with change.
Hi Chris, in regards to my comment But it's not the same as the example Tim gave and so I don't think it's a valid response against someone suggesting we keep paying attention to people who are putting in the hard yards in authentic Christian churches.
ReplyDeleteI only meant that the scenario you gave- about pouring money into social-club churches at the expense of taking the gospel to other areas of a city- isn't the same as what's happening in Ayr, so I didn't think it was a reason to disagree with the idea of continuting to recognise people in Gavin's position. That's all :)
ok I understand what you are saying there.
ReplyDeleteAnd I cannot comment on Ayr/Home Hill having not meet the people and I think Gavin is a Godly man (having meet him). But I would refer to my previous comment
"In regards to "social club churches" the sad reality is not that there are churches like this but there are people in almost every church that are like this."
I think I may have scared Tim off though - I do love you brother Tim.
:) no just trying to work out how to reply in love :D
ReplyDeletehow i think a church plant model should go
church>>> church growing and developing leadership>>>>> church plant... at each of those > things is time.
Now the thing is most church's aren't growing so they aren't even in the position to consider planting.
church>>>>>same church>>>>> same church dying out. now I know there are issues here about lack of mission and lack of out reach but we'll come to that.
In my opinion (I'm learning jon) what some times happens is
(model A)
church>>>>>>church decides to church plant without much growth or leadership>>>>>church plant and church both struggle in terms of leadership>>>> one or both die and people leave being disillusioned with the denomination.
(Model B)
church>>>>> people get in argument with church leadership>>>> plant church
Model C
People decided I want a church that runs how I want it to run with out being subject to leadership >>>> plant church to fit their need and wants while saying it is to fulfill a necessary area/ministry. unfortunately ends up targeting a very small range of people whether age group or theological base.
Now none of these 3 models are healthy plants but they happen and unfortunately people get severely burned when they fail.
Now another model is that of the traveling church planter. Now often they do do a good job. however sometimes the people in home office send them to an area where churches can't support the new church or they steal people from that church and leave both churches severely weakened. However the traveling planter has moved onto the next conquest with another notch on his belt.
The reason I bring up these is because we have seen everyone of these models happen in the past. And people in our churches have been burned by them and are rightly hesitant to get involved again. and look at their situations... John Knox is hardly in a position to plant- they are rebuilding and expanding quickly. They have started a youth group for the first time in a number of years... I call that missional. Yes maybe another church should be involved but they are getting a new pastor- I'd be hesitant too. They have been focused on the inner city but due to variety of issues it hasn't worked out. They are also looking south (e.g. that is their domain and this is ours. I call that missional and i wish them luck in their out reach especially to the inner city
Now to our church for some figures
ReplyDeleteAdults attending church at willows (total)
Feb 03>>>>>>>> Feb05>>>>>>>Feb 09
122 adlts 174 adlts 318 adlts
Now thats without the majority of our uni students back.
my point is in 4 years our church has doubled in size and in 6 years has tripled.
In 6 years I've been here we have gone from 0 young men in leadership to 22 young men in active leadership with a bunch more being groomed in the wings plus some moved on to other areas of ministry. I would call that encouraging young men not frustrating them.
We are building on a team of leadership but we aren't quite there yet. For instance Very frequently people are on rosters and yet do not do their job- yes this might be a small thing like welcoming but those who can not be trusted to do little things....
Also practically things like music and technical stuff we are stretch on already. There were two of us down for sound for the 11am service. bruce williams does sound every week for the 8am service- who wants to come an hour before church to set up?
But we are getting there- many churches would die to have tripled in 6 years- remember we are a church plant from not too long ago.
now in regard to change and i can only speak for the pressie church here: Now the pressie church is known for their in ability to change and that is because of mostly they are the remnant. You see the generation that wanted change, were vocal about change spoke up. They were passionate about change- we need to innovate. Denominations aren't important lets join with the Methodists they aren't that different to us. Wow Christians getting together, working together this is awesome. Lets not bother with paperwork and those big mission statements- Passion is the name of the game. These people left the church to start their own United church. Now imagine that is your daughter and son. Because of that little Compromise, 1 word (contains/is the word of God) thousand of people have turned their back on God disillusioned at the church or so liberal we can hardly call them christians. And so the Pressie church remained absolutely shattered-75% of all its building gone, the majority of their congregations gone and especially their innovators, creative thinkers. That is what takes a long time to recover from- many churches didn't ever recover. See our parent generation should be the ones who are leading from the front but there are oh so few of them in our churches. So of course the remnant are going to be resistant to change- why because look what happened last time- how do we change that- through love- there are so many scars that need to be healed- through time- showing that we can be trusted. You see they have had their kids calling them a self serving social church before- and how many of them are walking with the Lord now?
ReplyDeleteI agree.
ReplyDeleteWith all of you.
This is a complex issue that bears much thought.
Church planting is a path fraught with difficulty - but also much easier than transforming an established congregation and working with difficult elders who are entrenched in their positions. Which is often the challenge when trying to turn a presbyterian church into an evangelical church.
Tim I have just read your comments I have a question how much of the growth at willows is new Christians rather than Christians moving churches?
ReplyDelete