There is a post on the Pray for Revival Blog that has spurred some thought I hope it spurs yours
04 April 2009
01 April 2009
IT's back
01 April 2009
Video Preaching and Mega Churches Part 2
First, I think it is important to clarify a few things.
MULTISITE
If there are enough preachers then I absolutely agree that you could have a preacher at each location. I think this is great.
In saying that it would appear that in our current period churches when planting in the same city appear to be planting campuses rather than churches and I do see value in this. As one church in one city I think there is good reason for video preaching to ensure that all the campuses are on the same mission and are being challenged in the same way because they live in the same city. Why? Because this helps build community.
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PREACHER
I would not be suggesting that your preacher is in a different country or even a different city. As said they need to be aware of the issues and resolve (some of) them as Robyn said from the pulpit.
Robyn is right in saying that relationship is “everybody’s job”. Pastors and Elders and all members need to build relationships to build community. Video preaching is preaching it is only part of the relationship and does not mean that relationship cannot be continued outside of a Sunday.
The comment that “A video broadcast is a one way relationship so that just doesn’t work.” I think this is very misleading. You relationship with your Preacher during his sermon would not change whether it is live or on a video screen. Your relationship is dependent on your Preacher and you initiating to talking, etc outside of a sermon. As such video or no video does not make a difference to the relationship.
MODEL OF CHURCH & APOSTLES
There is a real danger is saying this is unique – throwing the baby out with the bathwater – and ignoring any application into our lives.
Our understanding of church should be driven from both the OT and NT, some things have changed some things stay the same. I would be concerned to say the early church is unique so it does not have application on church today, same with the OT.
As for Apostles there is a real danger of elevating the to a sub-God status here. They were men that had gifts and fulfilled God given roles. Some of these gifts continue – Preaching – and some of the roles continue – Leadership and Discipline.
TEACHING & PREACHING & GIFTING
To me teaching is critical – and teaching occurs in a number of forms, one being preaching. I agree that the point is to point people to Jesus but if they are not eloquent will anybody listen? (the answer is yes and no). My point is there is no point in having a bad preacher when you can have a good preacher.
Better preaching is learnable. Preaching is not learnable, it is a gift, some people have it some people don’t.
NO - “Video preaching is a bad idea.”
YES - “Prayerfully and purposefully seek men to fill gaps in country churches.”
NO - “We've set the bar for teachers higher than it should be by placing the exceptional guys on a pedestal.”
YES - “Faithful teaching out of love for the congregation is all that's required”
YES - “no excuse for truly "bad preaching"”
The Bible is the one that sets the bar high for the content of preaching (as it should). You’re a true Australian Nathan the tall poppy syndrome.
DEMOGRAPHICS
Like you said terrible generalisation… The aim is not to set the bar low. We do that to well. Nor should we preach too long but people should come to be preached to… Personal thoughts on sermon length are around 30-40 min with/plus interaction.
If someone does a bad job encourage and love but be truthful.
ACCOUNTABILITY & COMMUNICATION
Just because he is not there does not mean that there is no accountability or communication. Just as I could now I could send Dave and email or give him a call. If you have interaction during the service questions can be asked. If private I don’t see that these sort of question would be asked on the night but you would make a meeting, phone call or send an email.
The myth is that video preaching does not allow the Preacher “to be approached, questioned, conversed with, etc”. This is not true the form/frequency may change but this is more than possible.
Preachers should use things that help communicate the message. I agree PowerPoint helps.
SUMMARY
- Video Preaching is GOOD within boundaries.
- The Preacher (video or otherwise) needs to be accessible to his flock.
- The Preacher (video or otherwise) needs to be able to see the issues and deal with them.
- Church should be informed by the OT and NT.
- Some of the gifts and roles that the 12 Apostles carried out continue today.
- Teaching is critical – Preaching is Teaching.
- Have Good Preaching
- You should expect good preaching – Set the bar high
Posted by Chris Inness at 1:05 PM
Labels: church
1 comments:
Nathan said...
Anyone can be taught to teach. Just like anyone can be taught to ride a bike.
Not everyone will want to. But if you can speak, and can understand the bible you can be taught to teach in an adequate manner.
Adequate is good enough for most churches - provided the church program (throughout the week/month/year) is not solely focused on preaching.
"The myth is that video preaching does not allow the Preacher “to be approached, questioned, conversed with, etc”. This is not true the form/frequency may change but this is more than possible."
That's not a myth if we're talking person to person communication and not using technology. Not all uses of technology should be applied to the way we do church - studies show that more than 80% of our communication is non verbal - you can't pastor someone over the internet. You can answer questions.
"You’re a true Australian Nathan the tall poppy syndrome."
That's bollocks. Absolute bollocks. I'm happy to call people who are exceptional preachers exceptional preachers, and to learn from them. I just don't think we should be replacing live sermons from run of the mill preachers with broadcasts from the exceptional ones.
Can you demonstrate from Scripture any justification for anything you've said without refering to Jesus preaching to the 5,000 or the apostles writing letters...
"Our understanding of church should be driven from both the OT and NT, some things have changed some things stay the same. I would be concerned to say the early church is unique so it does not have application on church today, same with the OT. "
The early church was unique in many many ways - but the instructions about how church should be done - from the apostles to the churches and to ministers they were training create guidelines - I don't see any of these justifying leading a flock by remote control or virtual presence.
Re the pedestal comment - I honestly think that the people who spend all their time listening to luminaries like MacArthur, Piper and Driscoll are likely to be unhelpfully critical of Godly, but less gifted, preachers - and that criticism sometimes means missing the point.
The fact that we're so keen to jump on fads is akin to the "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos" situation Paul mentions in Corinthians. It's unhelpful and ultimately a distraction from Jesus.
The only way we should be assessing preaching is:
a) is it based on the Bible - and faithful to the Bible's message,
b) is it helping me to understand the Bible and Christian living
c) is it encouraging me to love and serve others,
d) does it point people to the Gospel.
If you can answer yes to all those points then you've got good teaching. Better teaching than the vast majority of churches around the world today.
I'm angry because video preaching driven by the preacher is inherently arrogant, and video preaching driven by adherents is inherently idolatrous.
April 01, 2009 1:57 PM
31 March 2009
Video Preaching + Large Churches
What?!
First I will back up with scripture the giftedness aspect - this is not charismatic this is biblical.
Secondly I will expand your comment of sound teaching.
Thirdly I will disagree using Jesus as the example of the "can't be over 5000" comment (plus the one minister comment).
Fourthly application for technology in using video preaching in PCQ.
1. GIFTED PREACHERS
1 Corinthians 12:1-10 & 14 discusses various spiritual gifts among them here is preaching (prophecy). Being a gifted preacher is not necessarily about being a Mark Driscoll or John Piper nor is it about attention grabbing or being “charismatic” in preaching. It is about someone who can preach Philip Jensen, JI Packer, Dave Mc, Dave Miers, Matt Chandler, etc. It is as Calvin put it
“By the term prophesying I do not mean the gift of foretelling the future, but as in 1 Corinthians 14:3 the science of the interpretation of Scripture, so that a prophet is the interpreter of the divine will... Let us understand prophesying to mean the interpretation of Scripture applied to the present need.”
Personally, I think that there are men that need to step up to the plate here and preach because they do have gifts in this area and they are not using them. This is two found though the elders and the pastors encouraging and allowing men to do this as well as men sticking up their hand to do this.
For me I think that I would be well suited to an ‘executive/management role’ but not a counselling one. Sometimes small churches don’t allow people to use their gifts and sometimes it pushes everything on to the plate of one man – generally the pastor.
2. SOUND TEACHING
So running on from the previous section sound teachers I would say are preachers. I am also not saying that a Pastor has one bad sermon and you throw them out.
3. IS THE MEGA CHURCH EVIL? – ONLY IF JESUS IS
I think that there is a part of evangelicalism that is far too legalistic and conservative when it comes to church size.
Jesus preached to thousands – yes live (Matthew 14 & 15; Mark 6 & 8; Luke 9 & 12; John 6). So did the disciples (Acts 2 & 4).
There is no way, as you said, one preacher can take care of personally that many people. I think this comes to a flaw in the thinking of church. The preacher does not need to be the one dealing with each church member one on one. Elders and other Pastors (whether that is a counselling pastor, small groups pastor, “site pastor”, etc) have to step up the plate here. To be honest I love the thought of freeing up the “Preaching Pastor” to focus on preaching and not having to worry about the other items.
There is something fantastic about building teams that allow people to focus on an area of ministry (and I think that this is very Biblical both OT and NT). This is what happens with Dave H being the Youth Pastor he can pour his time into this and why a small groups pastor would have been great for Willows.
Getting back to Jesus, He NEVER cared for the masses on a one on one basis (as a broad generalisation) he focused on a small group of men, his disciples. It is even highlighted in Acts 6 where the apostles were set apart to pray and minister the Word (preach) putting other men into those roles.
I am not opposed to small churches but the reality is that if you have one full time staff (assuming you have supportive and active elders) I still think that you can probably only minister to no more than 150 ppl.
4. APPLICATION IN PCQ
I think that there are some great opportunities to tie various congregations through technology and more importantly to get those that are out west plugged into a church community via a TWO way video feed (we see them, they see us). This allows two way communication.
I think that there is application here in here to presbyteries. Lets break congregational boundaries and employ at a presbytery level with staff allocated across the churches. Allow people to focus on a particular area and build ministry teams in various churches. I do not see this happening anytime soon though due to stubbornness, hurt and the current differences.
Summary
Someone said to me that they think that it is sinful when people are opposed to large churches (selfish) I am not sure where I stand on this comment but I do think that there is some truth to it, though general. The reality is that you cannot say there should not be big churches - it is unbiblical.
They also said that you have good and bad large and small churches – it is not about size but health.
I agree with him entirely.
To put it simply I believe (and think that I have shown from the bible) that large churches are biblical and so are ministry teams with specialist is particular areas (particularly for preaching).
30 March 2009
21 March 2009
Photos - Bribie Island
Please head to Dave Miers' blog and check out some photos that I put into his SNAPSHOP series.
Find it here.
Find it here.
17 March 2009
Sitting on a $USD 5 million asset
Well I have had a very big surprise today I aparantly am sitting on a $USD 4 million asset.
I could not believe it, I am still surprised and am not sure that it is quite true.
What is this asset you ask?
.
.
.
.
It is right in front of you ---- my blog.
I always look at Nathan's Blog and often check out the links. A recent blog discussed Stimator, which values the website you have. Nathan's was worth about $USD 551 so I thought mine would be a few dollars. But apparently not.
Now putting aside the fact that this may be the value of blogspot. I am pretty happy right now...
16 March 2009
CHANGE....
Here is something interesting from Mikey Lynch...
13. The pivotal point is succession. You always need a contingency plan, even when you're young. Don't be 'all windshield no rearviewmirror'. Will the movement outlive one leader. What will you honour - the founder or the future? How do you make sure that you do both? [that's exactly what we need to do in Australia!]. When a new movement leader rises up, the whole board should resign and allow the new guy to choose a new team!Sometimes the plan is to shut down the movement and disperse into tribes, that's fine, it just takes a huge amount of humility. The worst is to try to hold it together without a clear leader, for then it gets ugly.How does this apply to Willows and the Pressie Church?? Does it apply at all?
Night Photo
I took this the other week and only took it off my camera today.
How is this?
Completely manual. NO tripod!!!!
11 March 2009
My Post
A post on Christian Reflections
______________________________________________
As someone at the other end of the country from Melbourne - Townsville. I wonder how we can and will be apart of this.
I think the most important question is
How will the Church Planting network help bringing forth the Gospel through planting churches?
Personally I do care what we call it but what we do. As someone from Townsville I would hope that it would not be Sydney-Melbourne centric and to me this plays out into structure, communication and events.
Theologically I am going to be controversial and say that we should set the bar high, which is probably the wrong terminology. My thinking is that we don't make it so broad that it is just "Evangelical" but that we are planting churched that are focused on holding to certain beliefs. I think that this is something that needs a group to sit down and nut this out identify the controversies and where the network would stand. Some of these won't even be core gospel things but might be things like complementarian and egalitarian. I think it is the Gospel Coalition that has a list of things that they DO and DON'T stand for I think this is a good approach as it clarifies the boundaries on both sides. But after saying all that I think it shouldn't be too smaller a door that we don't get anything done.
TOPH
06 March 2009
Christian Hipster
ü it is true for me
û it is not true for me
¡ have no idea what they are talking about
? not sure / not bothered
______________________________________________________________________________
ü prefer “Christ follower” to “Christian”
ü can’t stand the phrases “soul winning” or “non-denominational,”
ü could do without weird and awkward evangelistic methods including (but not limited to): sock puppets, ventriloquism, mimes, sign language, “beach evangelism,” and modern dance.
ü don’t really have that big of a problem with old school evangelists like Billy Graham and Billy Sunday and kind of love the really wild ones like Aimee Semple McPherson.
Things Christian hipsters don’t like:
? megachurches,
? altar calls,
? door-to-door evangelism
ü John Eldredge’s Wild at Heart
? youth pastors who talk too much about Braveheart
ü Mel Gibson
û The Passion for being overly bloody and maybe a little sadistic
¡ people like Pat Robertson, who on The 700 Club famously said that America should “take Hugo Chavez out”; and they don’t particularly like The 700 Club either, except to make fun of it.
¡ evangelical leaders who get too involved in politics, such as James Dobson or Jerry Falwell, who once said of terrorists that America should “blow them all away in the name of the Lord.”
¡ TBN, PAX, or Joel Osteen. They do have a wry fondness for Benny Hinn, however.
û contemporary Christian music (CCM), or Christian films (except ironically), or any non-book item sold at Family Christian Stores
û warehouse churches or churches with American flags on stage, or churches with any flag on stage, really.
Things they like:
ü music, movies, and books that are well-respected by their respective artistic communities—Christian or not.
¡ Resident Aliens by Stanley Hauerwas and Will Willimon
¡ Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger by Ron Sider
¡ God’s Politics by Jim Wallis
¡ The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis.
û thinking and acting Catholic, even if they are thoroughly Protestant/evangelical.
û Pope, liturgy, incense, lectio divina, Lent, and timeless phrases like “Thanks be to God” or “Peace of Christ be with you.”
û enjoy Eastern Orthodox churches and mysterious iconography, and they love the elaborate cathedrals of Europe (even if they are too museum-like for hipster tastes).
ü taking communion with real Port, and they don’t mind common cups.
û poetry readings,
û worshipping with candles,
û smoking pipes while talking about God.
ü breaking the taboos that used to be taboo for Christians.
ü piercings,
û dressing a little goth,
ü getting lots of tattoos (the Christian Tattoo Association now lists more than 100 member shops),
û carrying flasks
û smoking cloves.
ü skateboarding
ü surfing,
û many of them play in bands.
? working for churches, parachurch organizations, non-profits, or the government.
ü on the whole, a little more sincere and idealistic than their secular hipster counterparts.
They tend to be fans of any number of the following authors:
¡ Flannery O’Connor,
¡ Walker Percy,
¡ Wendell Berry,
¡ Thomas Merton,
¡ John Howard Yoder,
¡ Walter Brueggemann,
ü N.T. Wright,
ü Brennan Manning,
ü Eugene Peterson,
¡ Anne Lamott,
ü C.S. Lewis,
ü G.K. Chesterton,
¡ Henri Nouwen,
¡ Soren Kierkegaard,
¡ Pierre Teilhard de Chardin,
¡ Annie Dillard,
¡ Marilynne Robison,
¡ Chuck Klosterman,
¡ David Sedaris,
? or anything ancient and/or philosophically important.
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